Good! When people give up Lange and its price getting decrease, it will be the good time to collect it. It will be like undervalued stock. When the market's buyers undervalue it, it's the time to buy it. But the keypoint is....undervalue it.
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品味男人的呈現
一在手腕
一在腳掌
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webber96
進階會員  |
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uhrfan
白金會員   |
發表於: 星期三 2007-06-20 22:43
Lesson to learn: Don't believe what are mass media promoting. Trust only your own favorite.
In my opinion, coca cola is affordable to almost everyone. It is just like quartz watches that are selling in the night market that provide basic time keeping function, nothing else. There are a lot of different wines available in the market. Wines from Bordeaux, Burgundy, Loire Valley, Alsace (France); Rhein, Mosel-Saar-Ruwer, Franken (Germany); Piemonte, Veneto, Toscana (Italy) and many other places are all taste differently. Wines produced from different district in the same area also taste very different (for example, in Bodeaux, wines from Medoc, Graves, Sauternes, St. Emillon, and Pomeral are all different) In my view, good watch likes good wine -- unique, sustain, scarce Some people like French wines, some people like German wines. There are also some people that would only drink wines produced by either Ch. Lafite-Rothschild or Ch. Mouton-Rothschild. Its all fine. Different taste creates different favorite. My point is that you can not say that wine from Ch. Lafite-Rothschild (Bordeaux) is better than wine from Romanee Conti (Burgundy) simply because the former's price appreciation is stronger than the latter's. Price does not equal to value -- this is particularly true in the stock market 
Wine drinking has been a trendy thing --personal opinion Watch collection is becoming a trendy thing -- personal opinion In those cases, buying which wine or which watch is really depend on participants' taste, favorite, and affordability But when watch "investment", or even worse, "speculation", is also becoming a trendy thing, pricing (potential) kick in. Its all fine that people wants to buy watches that will enjoy strong appreciation (I like it too ).
However, 100% focus on pricing may casue people forget to appreciate watchmakers' excellenct works and may also loose the joy of collections. |
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shiauij
白金會員  |
發表於: 星期三 2007-06-20 22:50
Totally agree..如人飲水，冷暖自知 |
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happy_wis
初級會員   |
發表於: 星期四 2007-06-21 01:02
Wow! Great reply! I like it a lot. Thanks for sharing your valuable opinion.
Hmm... probably I give a wrong impression that I like PP just because its price appreciation. Look at this: 
I don't think I can make any money out of this (or at least not as good as Dato in term of appreciation). However, I am still more than willing to pay real money to own it 
It is true that different people have different taste. For me, I think I am stubborn enough that I believe top of the top wine can only come from Bordeaux... Wine from Bordeaux are "tradition", "classic", etc... Wines from new markets may be good but IMHO they are not comparable to those from Bordeaux. Similarly, I keep saying that Lange is "trendy" because I deeply believe that only watches made by the true Genevan way is the top of the top watches... it is tradition, classic, historical... and PP is the only shop that is still privately owned, independent Genevan watch manufacturer who is capable to truly follow the Genevan way in making watches. The existing of Lange (a few years) ago was like "fresh air" for the industry. Indeed, we (i.e. PP collectors) might be bored in waiting PP to give us something new... knowing a brand (that was claimed to be comparable to PP) was definitely a good news. We all experienced intense marketing bombardment...(both formal marketing material and semi-formal marketing material). With this, as a human being, I believe that some of us would have a feeling that Lange is going to be a "future star" or something like that. In terms of your "小眾市場" idea, I agree that Lange was only targeting a "小眾市場" (if you count all the population that who buy watches)... However, if you count the population that buy decent fine watches, you would know that they are not targeting the "小眾市場". Personally, I believe that ANY fine watch collector know Lange. Looks at the people around you, most of them know Lange (if they know PP). With the intense marketing, they were quickly obtaining a seat in the mind of most fine watch collectors like a storm... The effect is like Panerai for the "小眾市場" (i.e. those who are willing to spend about 20k to 40k HKD for a "fine" watch but don't like Rolex). To me, the "fresh air" effect had gone. I am back to where I used to be... As a summary to myself, here are the few points that I don't like about Lange: 1. Not a real German brand (even they said they are). They had to shake the fine watch market from the ground up. Its effect is less if they use yet another Swiss brand... They are pretty smart... using a German brand can make the "fresh air" effect more prominent. However, it is well known that its iconic big date mechanism was designed by JLC... 2. They have no tradition. They just bought the "brand name" from the real German watch company and pretended that they were "since 1815"... 3. They are too high-tech. It is a product out of the latest technology....As a comparison, I guess you know when was the PP 215, 240 movements were designed... 4. They are innovative... for the sake of innovative only.... Look at the Lange 31. Do you like it? Is it visually appealing? Would you really wear such piece? Yes, I agree that "we shall give credit to watch producers who really commit to make a difference"... but it doesn't mean that you have to like its products and believe that they are one of the best. Now, whenever I see Lange, I see a marketing trap... Ok... ok... I know... I know all the above comment are biased... very biased.... extremely biased... Anyway, it is indeed what I feel about Lange. Actually, may I ask why you like Lange? And when you start to like it? And what do you think about Lange 31? |
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happy_wis
初級會員 |
發表於: 星期四 2007-06-21 01:27
One more thing... I don't know why I have such feeling...
PP is like an experienced, famous Pianist... you would feel the 感情 when he plays a 鋼琴協奏曲... even he may not 100% accurately reproduce what is written on the 鋼琴協奏曲... For Lange, it is like a 21st-century Pianist... robot. It can 100% accurately reproduced what is written in the 鋼琴協奏曲.... but it is lacking of the 感情... Personally, I prefer a not 100% accurately reproduced 鋼琴協奏曲 but full of 感情 
p.s.: Of course, it is just my very very personal feeling again. 
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uhrfan
白金會員 |
發表於: 星期四 2007-06-21 23:18
What is tradition?
If you think that tradition is something old and never change, then you don’t know what tradition is really means. Every tradition has to be created somewhere in time . When Geneva Way of watch making created, it was something new at that time (1886). Since Geneva Way facilitate the making of good watches, it attract high quality watch maker continue to use the rigid approach and, hundred years later, it become tradition. A tradition has to be revised/updated from time to time to keep up the pace with the ever changing world. The evidence is that Rules of Geneva Seal was revised in 1975 and 1994, respectively. Some people do not like Lange watches because they believe the company apply some non traditional way (or so call high tech way) in watch making. However, in my humble opinion, Lange is trying to create "New Tradition" in watch making industry . Lange’s three-quarter plate, gold chatons, goose-shape micrometric regulators are all traditional German way of watch making. The company uses different material (German silver) and approach to achieve better polish result is something new. But it actually create better product quality. Nothing wrong with developing or applying new approaches, tools, materials, and techniques to watch making providing those changes can deliver better quality products. May be a few years later those new tradition could well become true tradition. PP is developing/applying silicon hairspring and escape wheel to drive better performance/less maintenance works for watches and I do not think that is a “traditional” Genevan Way. Instead, PP is also trying to renovate its “tradition” (means adopting new technology and material) so as to make itself more competitive in a world with dynamic demand Truly, Lange did not invent “big date”. However, Lange successfully makes the feature to become a well-appreciated watch function. Company/person who knows how to leverage the best practices/ideas/design (even though they are not the creators/inventors of those features) and make them flourish in the industry shall deserve great credit no less than those creators/inventors . Remember, PP has also been leveraging some outsiders’ designs for watch production . The evidence is that, until today, PP is still using Lemania’s base caliber to produce the movement (27-70) for its 5970, 5070, and 5004 watches. Why do people like Lange? I think there are several reasons 1. The company is leveraging traditional German watch making techniques/designs, combining with the best practices/ideas/design available in the market, to create a “new tradition” in watch making 2. The company has no hesitation to develop their own movements. A total of over 12 movements have been developed by Lange in the past 17 years with functions range from regular watches (both automatic and hand winding) to chronograph, perpetual calendar, dual-time, double split, tourbillion, and some combinations of those functions. The shape of movements include round, rectangular, and baguette. I expect Lange will introduce more in-house movements in the future. The abundant movement portfolio will help to differentiate its watch products. (no “me too”) 3. Rigid production process (Two assembly process). Lange would firstly assemble it watch components to finish products to make sure it can function normally. It then dis-assembles those watches, polishes all the metal components & makes necessary engraving, and then re-assembles the watch by a master watchmaker for final test. 4. Innovation: Truly there are something never need to be changed. People can claim that double spilt has no practical applications and I would say so does chronograph and tourbillion. Building complicated functions into a watch is a kind of demonstration from watch makers that they are willing to challenge the impossible and are willing to make a difference and we shall all appreciate this kind of spirit. If Lange does not have to develop watch with power reserve of 31 days, then PP also does not have to produce watch with power reserve of 10 days 5. Lange watches simply look nice. Both the dial and movements demonstrated from the transparent case back. – very personal opinion. Actually, my thought is that without Lange’s demonstrating of its commitment in excellent watch making and caliber development, the so call No. one watch maker may not determine to develop its first dedicated caliber for chronograph and it could be still sitting comfortably and using Lemania movement happily. – purely personal speculation. Will I buy Lange 31? Don’t know yet. I have to see the real watch, play with it, wear it to see how it fit my hand and how do I like it. Pricing could be another consideration as, from my standard, it is very expensive. I do not want to repeat it but I still think “watch collection” is becoming trendy because thousands and thousands of people are joining the game. However, buying Lange can hardly be called trendy. If you had the impression that buying Lange was a “trendy” thing, please just go and check how many people actually “own” (not only “know”) a Lange watch. May be, just may be, buying Rolex is trendy, because it is affordable and a lot of people own several Rolex. Some people just want to drink Bordeaux wine because they think it is the top quality wine. I believe there also people prefer Burgundy or Toscana. We need varieties in this world to create differentiation and dynamics. If all the people in the world saying Bordeaux is the best quality wine in the world, I would say “What a boring world ”. Some people like touching 鋼琴協奏曲. That’s great However, I like “motivating” 交響樂. Lange is not a 21st-century robot. The brand is creating a wave of “new tradition” that could shake or change “old tradition”. The world is moving forward all the time and only the people that can catch up the pace (與時俱進) can survive and grow Sorry, I am writing too much. uhrfan 在 星期五 2007-06-22 00:13 作了第 2 次修改 |
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賴凱文
白金會員  |
發表於: 星期四 2007-06-21 23:51
_________________ 賴凱文 |
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shiauij
白金會員 |
發表於: 星期五 2007-06-22 00:18
精闢的見解，，中肯的意見
Uhrfan大大沒有品牌情節，，他的 ＰＰ可能比ＬＡＮＧＥ 多很多 一樣是愛錶一族。。小弟只想說ＬＡＮＧＥ真的是好表。。就像小弟很喜歡寶璣 我也知道現在是財團把持。可是就是喜歡阿。崇拜寶璣大師。。。小弟也愛PP 記得買地一只5059,，真的是因為喜歡他（當時覺得他是最美的 PP），也沒考慮保不保值。帶得很高興。。。現在買PP還得靠關係，用搶的，用喊價的，，算了，， 現在想買LANGE 是也是真的很喜歡，，怕將來又被炒高，買不起 |
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happy_wis
初級會員 |
發表於: 星期五 2007-06-22 00:39
Great! I can feel that you have great passion regarding Lange.
Meanwhile, I have to give a “two-thumbs up” award to the Lange marketing team for the great success in marketing. Do you really consider the ¾ plate, gold chatons, swan-neck regulator are all traditional German way of watch making? Do you really consider that Lange brought German Silver to the watch industry? Look at the following: ============== 
(Full info can be found here: http://bogoff.com/pocket/6027.html ) Is the above a german watch? It has ¾ plate, swan-neck regulator…. Look at the following: ============== 
(You can find full info here: http://www.watchart.com/page02_01.php?ID=5726&PageType=Prod&Page=2&LAP=1 ) Is the above a german watch? It has swan-neck regulator… it also uses Nickel alloy (also known as German Silver) Look at the following: ============== 
(Full info can be found here: http://cgi.ebay.pl/Beautiful-Waltham-Railroad-pocket-watch-USA-XIX-c_W0QQitemZ260125053704QQihZ016QQcategoryZ146665QQcmdZViewItem ) Is the above a german watch? It has ¾ plate, gold chaton… What is German Silver? =============== Nickel silver is a metal alloy of copper with nickel and often but not always zinc. It is named for its silvery appearance, and contains no elemental silver. Other common names for this alloy are German Silver, Paktong, New Silver and Alpacca (or Alpaca). Nickel silver is first known in China, and was known in the west from imported wares called Paktong or Pakfong (白銅, literally "white copper") where the silvery metal colour was used to imitate sterling silver. It was discovered to be a copper-nickel-zinc alloy in the 18th century. (Full description here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_silver ) High Tech? ======== Do you know what I mean by “high-tech”? Just to name a few... Have you heard of “Spark Erosion” or “Electrical Discharge Machining (EDM)”? You can find more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_erosion Do you know Lange employ these technologies in making the watches? I hope by now, you know what I meant by 因了解而分開… Please don't get me wrong. I am not asking people to away from Lange. Please do feel free to pick the watch that you want. I just want to share my personal opinion with you guys here. As long as you fully understand what you are getting, that's good enough
Anyway, enjoy watch collecting! |
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uhrfan
白金會員 |
發表於: 星期五 2007-06-22 00:56
Again, tradition is a combination of many best practices.
No one say Lange invented third-quarter plate, gold chaton, and swan-neck micrometric regulators. I already said whoever makes the best practices flourish deserve great credit. Chinese invested paper but Chiese are not the best paper producer in the world Thanks for introducing spark erosion, its somethin new to me My believe is if you do not try new thing, you never know how high is the sky and how far you can go Good night |
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